If you guys have read Part 1 of this series, you know that I originally intended this to be a three-part series, saying: “This will be a three-part series because there is simply too much to cover in one post, though I suspect it may become longer if the plot continues to thicken like oatmeal.”
Well, my loyal tanukis, the plot has indeed thickened like oatmeal concerning the many concerns I have with Bryce Crawford as three months ago, he had Carl Lentz on his podcast (he also went onto Carl’s podcast around the same time). For those of you have been living under a rock for the past decade and a half or so, Carl Lentz was the lead pastor of Hillsong church’s New York City branch. During his time there, he became insanely famous, befriending big name celebrities, including Justin Bieber (who he baptized and became a spiritual leader to). He had a major impact in the Christian circle, especially amongst younger pastors, but it all came to an end in 2020, when he was fired from Hillsong by Global Senior Pastor, Brian Houston (who has major issues as well and later had to resign), for “leadership issues and breaches of trust, plus a recent revelation of moral failures.”
What were these problems that were so serious that Hillsong had to get rid of Lentz?
The answer is: adultery. He had committed adultery with fashion and jewelry designer Ranin Karim in 2020, however, that was only the tip of the iceberg. In 2021, Leona Kimes, the wife of Josh Kimes of Hillsong Boston, revealed that while she had been working as a nanny for the Lentz family, she was sexually preyed upon by Lentz, bullied, and manipulated from 2011 to 2017. Furthermore, a slew of victims of Hillsong NYC shared their stories of abuse and mistreatment, shedding light on the celebrity hierarchy there after Lentz left.
Clearly, this guy is not a good leader and should never be let within five thousand miles of a leadership role in the church or anywhere else. So why is he on a podcast with Bryce Crawford?
Well, this is where it gets interesting. On June 4, 2024, he started a podcast called “Lights On with Carl Lentz.” This podcast was basically a PR rebrand. In his first episode, though he does apologize for hurting all the people that he did, it also sounds like he’s about to break out the ukelele Coleen Ballinger style, as he says:
“When you go through something like we’ve gone through, you either break down and die and let it define you for the rest of your life, or you get up and you fight and you try to break through and remind yourself that we’re all writing our story and nobody else can control the true, real narrative of your life.”
“And we have had a journey of making sure we don’t lay down, die, and let a hard chapter define us.”
He also claims that he’s not a disgraced pastor as the headlines say he is, saying:
“And if people could stop writing headlines like that, I would appreciate it, because it’s inaccurate. I’m not a disgraced former pastor. I am a human being that made huge mistakes.”
“I’m a human being that’s trying to rectify my life and make wrongs right and to live completely differently. But disgraced I am not. I’m more filled with grace than I’ve ever been. Did I fall from grace? Absolutely not. I fell into it, and I’m really grateful for that.”
“You could say that what I did was disgraceful, maybe at times, sure. But I’m not disgraced, because we’re forgiven, and I have been able to feel God’s grace more than ever. I understand the thought, but I just wanted to get it out there: That doesn’t fit me.”
Why is “Toxic Gossip Train” playing in the back of my mind right now? Anyways….
Since then, Lentz has gained a fairly large following of 67.1K subscribers with many of his videos being about how he and his wife have navigated life post-Hillsong (in a few episodes, he even had his kids on the talk about what happened) or where he interviews other people. Because of this, a collab with someone like Bryce Crawford only seemed natural and believe me when I tell you that it was hard to listen to.
The first reason why this episode of the Bryce Crawford podcast was hard to listen to was because it reminded me of Candace Owen’s interview with Andrew Tate. Throughout the podcast, Bryce makes it clear that he’s been a fan of Hillsong for a very long time and just fanboys over Lentz being in the studio. Though I can give him some credit for being respectful towards Lentz and not wanting to make the entire episode about what happened at Hillsong, what happened there was huge. Lentz not only hurt his family, but he also hurt hundreds if not thousands of other people directly and indirectly. Even if he has repented and Bryce is trying to be respectful, you can still be respectful and hold the person to account for what they did.
Though Lentz claims to have repented, throughout the interview, he – sometimes overtly, sometimes more discreetly – seems to be pointing fingers at people for judging him. At the 12:41 mark, he starts saying that people’s response to your story says more about them than it does about you, saying:
“Yeah, to look at somebody and say I see you as my brother I think what you find as you get older on this journey […] a couple things. One, you know people’s response to your story says more about them than you sometimes. So, if you have a story and your reaction is horror it’s like, ‘interesting’. So, if I’m settled in my soul and I’m filled with grace, and you know, I’m steady on my own two feet, you can tell me something today [and] hopefully my reaction would show where I’m at, which is, ‘Man I’m here for you. You’re not going to scare me. I’m not going to run from you.’ It’s not gonna […] but for me to be, you know, appalled and to shun and to judge […] we’ve learned that often a). those people are a hiding very similar stuff they’re pointing out in your life and then two they just haven’t dealt with it. And why would my story create this in you? It’s a question for that person. So, I think it’s a […] it’s a very interesting thing you find.”
While I can agree that if a person is truly repentant of what they’ve done, we should hit the grace button when we hear their stories, what he’s saying here does ring some alarm bells for me. The first reason why it raises some questions is because some people have testimonies that, even if you do act with grace towards them, are horrific. For example, if you came up to me and your testimony was that you were a rapist who assaulted a bunch of people before you came to Christ, even if you are deeply repentant of what you did, I would be horrified. Even if I were extending grace, I would still be keeping you at a safe distance as though I were dealing with a semi-wild street dog. That’s not saying anything about me personally. That’s me wanting to keep myself safe. What it seems Carl isn’t understanding here is that there’s a fine line between forgiveness of sin and trusting someone. In his case, though we can choose to forgive him of what he did, that does not mean that we should necessarily trust him.
The second reason why this raises questions about how sincere he is in his repentance is because it seems to be shifting the blame from him onto other people. Instead of fully owning up for what he did and taking responsibility for it, it seems like he’s trying to make you feel guilty or like a bad Christian if you react with some degree of distress at hearing about what he did. Perhaps I’m reading between the lines here, but it sounds very subtly manipulative. It’s as though he’s saying, “I’m sorry for what I did, and I take responsibility, but you’re part of the problem if you’re disturbed by my testimony.” That doesn’t seem right to me at all.
Another example of this is when Bryce very gently asked about the adultery at the 18:18 mark. Lentz immediately starts trying to defend himself in possibly one of the most disturbing ways I have ever listened to. He says:
“But by and large, man, people they run […] they run from problems. They run from things that are ugly. [And] my situation was very, very ugly so it just began a slow breakdown. I mean, people want to know what happened. I […] you know, I had […] there was infidelity in my marriage, and I got caught and it was a chance for me to really get clean and get honest. So, it’s like, yeah, and even though parts of what were told were very false, to fight some of those details would be so stupid. Like who wants to be the guy who’s like, ‘No, no, no it wasn’t on Tuesday, it was Wednesday!’ It’s like, dude, we’re talking about robbing a bank. Who cares what day it’s on, right? Like, that’s what it was like for me to have to learn how to accept the decisions that I made put me in a position to have a lot of things be said.
“But if people want to know what really happened at Hillsong New York City […] human leaders. And are there aspects of the way that church is done that needs to be assessed and changed? For sure. Sure, that should happen anyway. But it wasn’t as complicated and spectacular as some people tried to make it out. It just wasn’t and it was too juicy of a story for people to not just let it be what it is which is I had some serious issues in my life. And when you’re a leader, they’re going to come get you at some point and that’s what happened to me. And then, yeah, it exposed more about the greater Hillsong movement in[…] in a bunch of different ways and just started a ripple effect.”
Yes, we are human. Yes, we make mistakes. But here’s the thing: that excuse doesn’t make up for the lives that were damaged thanks to Lentz (and the broader Hillsong church’s) mistakes. Furthermore, to write things off and basically say that the media was making a bigger spectacle out of Hillsong than it was, is ridiculous. Once again, under Lentz, hundreds – if not thousands – of people were directly or indirectly hurt by Lentz because of his poor leadership, narcissism, manipulation, etc. I think if Lentz were truly repentant, he would admit what he did wrong and fade away quietly instead of constantly trying to rebrand himself. For crying out loud, he denied the allegations leveled at him by Kimes until 2023, and even then, he was claiming that it was consensual and wasn’t abuse.
The worst part about this? Bryce just sat there and nodded along with it. No questions. No comments. No pressing Lentz. He just let him talk.
This leads me to my final point which is this: if he’s truly repentant, why is he still seeking attention? Even if some of the things said about him were half-truths (of which I have yet to see proof of), why would you still keep fighting against it? Yes, it’s not great to be lied about, but back down. Focus on rebuilding your life in private.
Now, to answer the question of why would Bryce Crawford have Carl Lentz on his podcast? I believe the answer is, “Because he’s popular.” In our world where we are obsessed with true crime, scandal, and cults, it makes sense as to why Lentz would still be such a popular figure. We want to hear all the juicy gossip about what’s going on. However, the biggest problem with this is why would you want to associate yourself with a figure who, while he says he’s repentant, still seems to maintain some of the same problematic behavior that made him such a menace in the first place? Why would you help give voice to him? And besides that, Carl Lentz’s theology simply is not good. He’s a progressive “Christian” mixed with Hillsong’s belief in the Seven Mountain Mandate. Bryce already does a good job of spreading messaging that seems somewhat aligned with progressive Christianity and when he brings on people like Lentz and introduces his audience of primarily Gen Z and Gen Alpha kids, he’s introducing them to even more false teaching.
All of this is quite concerning, and I hope that Bryce learns soon that this is not good spiritually or socially.
Until next time,
M.J.
The Tanuki Corner 
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